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Another Report of Improper Obama Caucus Tactics

Bonnie Erbe, writing in her Scrips-Howard column today, quotes from a copy of a memo forwarded to her that was written by a professor in North Carolina who volunteered for Hillary at the Washington State Caucuses. The prof is a volunteer and was writing to warn other Clinton volunteers of tactics the Obama campaign reportedly used in other states.

First, the background from Bonnie:

I have obtained a copy of a memo written by a Clinton campaign volunteer in Washington state intended only for other Clinton volunteers in subsequent caucus states (specifically for Texas campaign volunteers). It warns them of "caucus disruption strategies" by supporters of Sen. Barack Obama.

More...

The memo was written by a University of North Carolina professor emerita of anthropology who served as a volunteer Clinton precinct committee officer in the Washington state caucuses last month. It warned other volunteer organizers about so-called "strategies" alleged to have been observed by herself and by Clinton volunteers in Iowa and Nevada. The volunteer, in a phone conversation I had with her, asked that her name not be used.

The tactics witnessed were:

"1. Individuals arriving all at once in large groups can disrupt the caucus by making it difficult to keep track of sign-in sheets, among other things. It created crowding in one caucus site that I am aware of and there weren't enough chairs for people to use. Other behaviors that can make it difficult for the caucus to run smoothly are deliberate disruptions with things like chanting, sign waving, dancing or singing. The Precinct Chair (or Caucus Chair) will need to insist on order.

"2. Individuals may arrive who are not registered to vote in a particular precinct with the story that 'they just moved there.' Some places where this has been observed, the person really didn't fit the picture of somebody who had 'just moved into' the precinct. They were allowed to register to vote and to caucus. (I do not know whether this individual's vote has been certified or not.) Bottom line: know your precinct demographics and make note of individuals who are registering to vote on site. (If they are so excited about participating, why haven't they registered before.)

"3. Supporters for a particular candidate, such as Senator Clinton, have arrived at caucus sites early to decorate and organize and been told that 'the building was locked.' When they are finally allowed into the building they see that signs for other candidates had already been posted. Bottom line: know who you are dealing with in terms of the caucus coordinator ... This will usually be some volunteer for the local Democratic Party."

The memo raises the question of whether these tactics are responsible for Obama's caucus wins. Also see my report on dirty tricks reportedly used at the Texas caucuses. Additional complaints were made in El Paso and elsewhere in Texas.

While acknowledging that there may be reports of Clinton supporters using improper tactics at caucuses that she hasn't received, Bonnie posits:

This memo is important in that Obama has fared way better than Clinton in caucus states on the whole and such tactics may have figured in those successes.

....since Clinton's victories in the Ohio and Texas primaries, much has been made of her ability to win primary votes and Obama's ability to win caucus states. How much of his ability to win caucus votes has been predicated upon these alleged tactics? I have no answer to that question and pose it to you, dear reader, to answer for yourself.

Bonnie then raises another question: How many of Obama's wins will really matter in the general election against John McCain? Consider that his wins in Idaho, Utah, Georgia, Wyoming, Mississippi and South Carolina -- even Texas assuming as expected he wins those -- are all strong Republican states. Meaning these states will go to John McCain in November.

Bonnie adds,

Meanwhile, Clinton will have won at least eight of the 11 largest states, including must-win battleground states such as Florida and Ohio ..."

Her final point:

The question of "electability" must be revisited. And although many polls have shown Obama to be the tougher competitor against Republican John McCain in a general-election match-up, one wonders whether that continues to be the case.

For more on electability, which I think is the most important issue going forward assuming Hillary wins Pennsylvania, see this earlier post, Ten Key States and a Perspective on Pennsylvania.

< Barack Obama Was For Mail In Voting Before He Was Against It | Account Registration Problems >
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  • Display: Sort:
    Isn't this profiling? (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:00:10 PM EST
    Bottom line: know your precinct demographics and make note of individuals who are registering to vote on site. (If they are so excited about participating, why haven't they registered before.)


    depends on what the reader means (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by scribe on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:15:26 PM EST
    by "demographics".

    If a blue-haired punker widda Noo Yawk accent shows up in Rural Where-ever, miles from the nearest college, chances are they aren't from the area.

    Parent

    That's kind of what I thought.... (none / 0) (#13)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:17:43 PM EST
    ...when I read it, but since it is unclear it's hard to really know what was meant.

    Parent
    Isn't the MORE IMPORTANT POINT ... (none / 0) (#21)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:23:39 PM EST
    that Obama may be organizing non-residents to vote in caucuses?

    Not proven by any means.  But it's a much clearer inference than the inference in this thread.

    Parent

    I hear of busing people from neighboring states (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by thereyougo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:59:53 PM EST
    now it could be get out the vote, but who is really monitoring this except regular citizens?

    I mean, really, organizing is one thing, but gaming the caucuses with slick tactics is something that had to be part of the plan, taking advantage of unsuspecting caucus attendees.

    Parent

    See reports from eastern Iowa (none / 0) (#42)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:39:19 PM EST
    right across the river from Illinois. On the Des Moines Register website, I saw them in a readers' blog, in news reports, etc.

    Parent
    There was a RUMOR (none / 0) (#44)
    by cmugirl on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:40:32 PM EST
    and I repeat a RUMOR that he had bused kids in from Illinois into Iowa...

    Parent
    Some rumors are true ... (none / 0) (#53)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:49:29 PM EST
    and this rumor has been repeated enough to at least raise eyebrows.

    Parent
    I'm also concerned about (none / 0) (#80)
    by JJE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:26:11 PM EST
    Alligators in the sewers.  Also razor blades in apples.

    Parent
    Both of which (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 05:13:00 PM EST
    have happened, of course, if only a couple of times.  

    So one or a couple examples of democracy perverted don't bother you.  Okie-dokie.  How many would do so?  Tell us how many caucuses turned into chaos you need to be concerned, and we will start counting.  

    Parent

    Or (none / 0) (#108)
    by tek on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:10:02 PM EST
    how many razor blades in apples would you consider serious?   Or, how may of your kids would have to bite into a razor blade in an apple before you considered it serious?

    Parent
    there have been (none / 0) (#74)
    by facta non verba on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:19:43 PM EST
    accusations of double dipping. Vote in their home state and vote where they go to school. How large? Probably not significantly. Still not exactly the best training for the future leaders of America. Karl Rove got his start in the Nixon era as a leader in the College Republicans.

    I am more galled by Obama's "Democrats for a Day" tactics that encourage people to vote in the Democratic Party solely for Obama and then go back and resume their normal lives. That seems in the long-run a self-defeating proposition. Every new piece of evidence seems to confirm an early impression (back in January in Nevada) that Obama is simply another Richard Nixon in terms of political tactics.

    Parent

    Another Richard Nixon in political tactics ... (none / 0) (#81)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:28:54 PM EST
    Might that also suggest he might be another Richard Nixon in his operational strategy in government.

    The two usually go hand-in-hand.

    Parent

    woopsie... (none / 0) (#105)
    by DudeE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:32:45 PM EST
    ...yep I echoed the cynical "Obamacrat" strategy before reading your post.  Hey, sure you're a Republican but you can help us beat the tar out of Hillary...

    Parent
    He's clearly been pushing... (none / 0) (#104)
    by DudeE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:31:12 PM EST
    ...an "Obamacrat" strategy with organized campaigns to persuade voters to switch party affiliation within the 30 day window for sole purposes of voting for him in the primary.  This was amply documented in FL and NV.

    Parent
    No, no (none / 0) (#109)
    by tek on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:11:27 PM EST
    It's Rush Limbaugh who's doing this.  Remember, Obama people say Rush Llmbaugh's Republicans beat Obama in TX.

    Parent
    And in the next breath... (none / 0) (#111)
    by DudeE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:53:53 PM EST
    ...they'll tell you that Clinton is unelectable because Republicans will be mobilized to go out and vote for McCain...

    Makes yer head spin don't it?

    Parent

    Yes, that struck me too n/t (none / 0) (#6)
    by independent voter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:13:46 PM EST
    I am getting so sick of hearing this one same note (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:15:04 PM EST
    Who is determining that (none / 0) (#19)
    by independent voter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:21:03 PM EST
    someone "doesn't fit the demographics"? Give me a break, that is ridiculous

    Parent
    Oh, god ... (none / 0) (#14)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:18:00 PM EST
    give it a rest!

    Parent
    That wasn't to you, Kathy, (none / 0) (#16)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:19:00 PM EST
    but the posts above.

    Actually echoing your sentiments.  

    Parent

    Robot (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:28:04 PM EST
    I assumed!  We tend to get annoyed by the same things...

    Parent
    Similar complaints came in Iowa (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:34:04 PM EST
    and characterize the entire campaign. I've posted here, previously, reports from participants in state after state -- not all anonymous, re that concern -- about these problems. They can be found in online local media in every caucus state, from the Des Moines Register to the Las Vegas papers forward. Some are reported in news stories, some are readers reporting them on the newspapers' blogs. I'm glad to see this get some attention now. I wish that someone in media, or some blog, would collect similar reports from day one to put together the big picture -- this is a central campaign strategy, to aim for caucuses and then game the caucuses. I keep envisioning the book that will be written about this campaign -- The Making of the President 2008, if you will. We know that historian Sean Willentz already wrote a chapter, effectively. The caucus gaming will be another chapter. So will the "Dems for a Day" campaign in every state, and the will include my state. We saw another chapter written yesterday in Mississippi, and yet another being written right now about Florida and Michigan. Etc., etc. This will not be a pretty story. But it will be a blockbuster. Of course, like All the President's Men about Watergate, it will come 'way too late. Then again, then we didn't have blogs. Maybe it's not too late this time.

    "Dems for a Day" in Wisconsin (none / 0) (#101)
    by Ben Masel on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 06:32:09 PM EST
    With no registration by Party, every voter in the Primaries is "for a day."

    Parent
    I thought I was just being paranoid (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:53:09 PM EST
    but I have always been suspicious of these dependably consistent caucus wins.


    My Experience - Not from a Memo (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by eric on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:10:32 PM EST
    I live in Minnesota and went to the "caucus" on Feb. 5.  I have been to many, many caucuses before.  What I experienced closely mirrors some of the issues discussed here.  I am not alleging any fraud.  I do have some major concerns, however.

    Caucuses were handled differently this year.  The caucus was turned into a sort of quasi-primary.  Instead of guaging support for the Presidential candidates by the number of delegates that are elected (as was done in the past), they allowed people to cast "votes" after entering.  You did NOT need to be registered to "vote".  You could leave and not stay for the caucus.  "Voting" was done by writing a name on a makeshift scrap of paper.  The people handing out the "ballots" were dressed in Obama tshirts.  Obama signs were everywhere - nothing for Clinton.  In short, I wouldn't put too much stock in the voting totals from Minnesota.  It was really, really informal.

    There were literally ten times more people than I have ever seen at a caucus.  Most appeared to be Obama supporters, in my view.  There was a huge line.  It was clear that they weren't there to caucus in the traditional sense as I heard them talk about "voting".  "Voting" isn't something that one would ordinarly expect at a caucus.  Most of these people "voted" and then left.  Which is a good thing as the room was far to small to hold anywhere close to everyone.  Even I decided to leave once it became too crowded.

    The whole thing was odd.  I don't think the Obama people did anything wrong.  I do think that the system was changed and Obama's people really took advantage of it.  They completely controlled the process.  Most of all, they succeeded because they got the word out to all of the supporters that they didn't need to stay for the caucus.  Just vote and leave.

    Then the question is why Minnesota (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:26:07 PM EST
    changed the process, who sponsored it, who approved it, etc. Recall anything on that, say a year or so ago?

    Parent
    There were other shenanigans (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by shoephone on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:20:15 PM EST
    I did not notice any of the tactics described in the professor's memo, but I did witness something else at my WA State caucus in Seattle that bothered me a lot.

    In my precinct: After the Obama and Clinton spokespeople each got their chance to deliver a one-minute speech in support of their candidate, the PCO called for a final vote. At that point, some of the Obama supporters rushed over to her insisting that they be given more time -- a second opportunity to lobby for their candidate, using the justifiction that "this is such an important election" and oh, by the way, "we run a restaurant and have to get to work right away, so we need this right now!" This particular woman would not take no for an answer. This was completely unfair and a corruption of the rules, but my PCO, a very shy and kind person, was not able to push back against this. She gave each side another minute each to lobby. The spokesperson for the Obama campaign spent a full minute attacking Clinton (because, ya know, she's evil and all that). By contrast, the Clinton spokesperson spent their minute talking only about Clinton and her health care plan. The spokesperson talked about her own background as a nurse and that she knows that Clinton's plan is the better plan. She spoke about surgery she had to have for a brain tumor two years earlier and feels lucky to have had insurance because she sees first-hand what happens to people who don't.

    Out of nine uncommitteds, six went for Clinton, two went for Obama and one remained uncommitted. Obama won three delegates to Clinton's two in my precinct. Probably not the result the Obama people were hoping for.

    So I defintely saw some ugly and obnoxious behavior from the Obama people, just not the same tactics described in the professor's memo.

    And, for many reasons, I consider caucuses to be illegitimate processes anyway, but that's another (long) story...

    Sheesh. I finally got registered at this site after a few techie problems.

    I was our caucus secretary and signed people in. (4.00 / 4) (#25)
    by Angel on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:26:31 PM EST
    We had several who "had just moved into the precinct" who didn't bring ID, a voter's registration card, or any evidence that they had voted (a temporary card stamped with the voting date, etc.).  Others without ID or proof of voting said they were "with their husband" or some other relative so why should they have to have ID.  We did not let them vote.  One of the BO guys at our caucus came up to me a half hour before the caucus started and wanted to know where the precinct chair was.  I told him that that person had not arrived yet and he said, "Well, that's okay because we've got it covered."  Now what could he have meant by that?  Another BO guy stood next to the sign-in tables and told people they could leave once they signed in.  But the rules stated that they all had to stay until the meeting had officially been convened.  He argued about it and screamed until the precinct chair told him to can it.  Then he got on the phone with someone and paced the room and then said that he had talked to so-and-so and that it was okay for people to leave after the sign-in.  He was trying to create a disturbance but we shut him down.  And we were at a smallish precinct with only about 250 people at the caucus.  I shudder to think what went on at the larger ones.  

    I read your post five times (none / 0) (#28)
    by moe21885 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:29:54 PM EST
    and didn't see any fraud.

    I guess this is going to be the new Clinton meme...Obama's stealing the election!

    Parent

    Read it a 6th time and you'll see that I did not (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by Angel on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:36:28 PM EST
    say there was fraud.  It was an account of my experience.  Note that I did not say who the people without IDs were there to vote for.  They could have been there for Edwards or Gravel for all I know.  I didn't ask them because it didn't matter.  No ID, no vote.  Pretty simple.  However, the people whom I identified as BO people is verifiable because they were in the meeting and then they congregated on the side of the room with the Obama voters to select their precinct delegates.  So I know who was trying to disrupt the meeting.  I didn't say it was fraud.  But it was rude and uncivil behavior.

    Parent
    Vote suppression, voter intimidation (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:42:09 PM EST
    are as bad as vote fraud, yes. I thought we established that in Florida and Ohio. I guess we have to start over every four years even in re-education on the issue, which delays action, and then it dies . . . only to surface again four years later, when we start over even in re-education on the issue. . . .

    Parent
    Cream, remember ... (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:51:45 PM EST
    civil rights are only violated when Obama supporters tell us they've been violated.  Anything else is "democracy in action."

    Heaven help us if this is how he governs.

    Parent

    Please (none / 0) (#110)
    by tek on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:17:07 PM EST
    that's an image I can't contemplate--him governing from the WH.

    Parent
    Exhibit A (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by blogtopus on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:52:36 PM EST
    Excellent -- not far in the past, huh? (nt) (none / 0) (#98)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 06:02:06 PM EST
    Kind of weird (none / 0) (#34)
    by JJE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:34:29 PM EST
    because usually ginned-up accounts of voter fraud are pushed by the GOP.

    Parent
    Try a Google search (none / 0) (#37)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:35:11 PM EST
    On the words "Steal", "Election", "Obama", "Clinton" and "DailyKos" and you'll find out the meme has been in full effect for some time now.

    Not by Clinton of course.


    Parent

    There must be police reports (none / 0) (#30)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:30:42 PM EST
    affidavits?  There was mention here the other day that a woman married to a lawyer for the Clinton campaign said her husband flew back from TX with stacks of reports to compile about caucusing problems.

    And then, a few people on TL today have made it seem as if the caucus counting process has been suspended for the time being?

    Why aren't we being told information?

    Parent

    That was my post here, Kathy (none / 0) (#48)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:43:30 PM EST
    and I can do so again -- but why bother, if the naysayers are just going to nitpick at it rather than face the reality?

    Parent
    Tilting at windmills (none / 0) (#64)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:04:38 PM EST
    Keep tilting ... (none / 0) (#70)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:13:03 PM EST
    they might be giants!

    Parent
    Nice to basis an argument on (3.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Joike on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:25:38 PM EST
    a memo by the supporter of one candidate.

    No conflict of interest there.

    I like how the memo is based on what the guy has heard from others and not on personal experience.

    I heard from a close personal friend that a cousin of his overheard his barber's neighbor say that he heard this one guy say something to this other guy that might be mean.

    I love the last line, just because Obama does better head to head against McCain now doesn't mean he will later.  And just because Clinton does well against McCain now doesn't mean she will later.

    Just because Clinton is ahead in PA now doesn't mean she'll still be ahead in 6 weeks.

    Let's read into the memo.

    #1  People arriving in a group.  Oh, no.  It's dangerous if people travel together.  Maybe they rode together to save gas.  We all have to fight global warming.

    Also, people who are enthusiastic for a candidate are dangerous.  Watch out for people who sing or clap (particularly at the same time).

    #2  It is important to profile voters.  If people look different from you, they are dangerous.

    If people are new to voting, they shouldn't be allowed to vote.  New voters are dangerous because it shows that they might be inspired by a particular candidate who is lucky to have been born they way he was.

    #3 We've been out-organized by our opponent because we thought the race would be over by now.  It's too late for anything but excuses on why we don't do well in caucuses.  So let's try anything that fits even if it means extrapolating isolated incidents into a sinister pattern of deception and voter intimidation.

    you need to read before posting (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:34:29 PM EST
    Bonnie wrote the professor's memo:

    warned other volunteer organizers about so-called "strategies" alleged to have been observed by herself and by Clinton volunteers in Iowa and Nevada.

    She witnessed them too.
    She not he.

    Totally devalues your comment.

    Parent

    Devalues? Yes (none / 0) (#71)
    by Claw on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:15:38 PM EST
    Destroys? No.  This is a memo circulated by a candidate who doesn't like the fact that she has lost an overwhelming majority of caucuses.  I don't mind the memo being posted but the absolute lack of critical analysis is troubling.
    If ANY Obama supporter tried an argument like this they'd be labeled the craziest Obamabot on the block.  
    We've past silly season.  We're into hook, line, and sinker season.
    And to think I was going to post about how disappointed I was with Obama for what now seems to be real opposition to a revote...

    Parent
    I'll grant you that I misread the article (none / 0) (#85)
    by Joike on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:40:34 PM EST
    I read that the professor was a volunteer in Washington state.  I goofed and missed that apparently she was also a volunteer in Iowa or Nevada.  She (the professor) is reporting what she and other volunteers have witnessed though the article though we don't know which incidents she herself witnessed and which were reported to her by other volunteers.

    I retract that part of my post, but my criticism of the memo remains valid.

    Ironically for a professor of anthropolgy, she seems disoriented when people behave in a manner different from what she might be used to.

    Some people are more demonstrative than others, but that doesn't indicate an attempt to intimidate other voters nor does it indicate a systematic attempt by the Obama campaign to disenfranchise Clinton supporters.

    Obama's campaign put more resources into the caucuses than Clinton did.  Erbe's article tries to discredit Obama's wins by saying he used unsavory tactics and she is basing her claim on a report from the Clinton camp.

    I think it is fair to say that a Clinton supporter is going to see events from a pro-Clinton perspective and vice-versa.  What is intimidation to one side is exuberence to the other.  We should eye claims by either camp with equal suspicion should we not?

    Erbe, in the column, notes that the volunteer is a volunteer not a campaign official.  Does that grant the person greater credibility?  Is that a distinction without a difference?

    Besides, after reading a few of Erbe's other columns, I see she is a Clinton supporter.  I like how she thinks Clinton should be at the top of the "dream ticket" because of age.  Should McCain then win the GE because of age?  Weird.

    http://www.usnews.com/blogs/erbe/2008/3/5/a-democratic-dream-ticket.html

    Do dirty tricks happen in primaries?  Yes.

    Do some volunteers go over the line in support of their candidate?  Yes.

    Is there any evidence that these "tactics" are widespread or intentional by Obama's campaign?  No.

    Erbe's column strikes me as either grasping at straws or having a deadline and needing something fast.

    Parent

    Are the TX caucus votes even tallied? (none / 0) (#2)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:02:20 PM EST


    Yes. (none / 0) (#17)
    by sweetthings on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:20:38 PM EST
    Not only are they tallied, they are checked against voter registration lists. Everyone voting in the caucus had to sign their name next to their registration number.

    At my caucus location, the Chairwoman asked for a volunteer from each group of supporters to double-check the sign-in list against the registration log. We had two volunteers from each group tally the votes.

    Seemed to work pretty well.

    Parent

    ?? Days after the primary, only (none / 0) (#20)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:22:43 PM EST
    40% of the caucus votes were counted, IIRC.
    When did the counting finish?

    Parent
    The counting was finished that night... (none / 0) (#32)
    by sweetthings on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:33:12 PM EST
    In at least 99% of the caucuses. It's not really that hard to tally the lists.

    The reason that CNN had '41% reporting' or whatever for so long is because while the caucus counts were complete on the night of the 4th, the process wasn't. The precinct caucus (which occurs on the day of the primary) is only the first step of a longer process.

    Each precinct in Texas is assigned a certain number of delegates. After primary voting closes, a local caucus is held to determine how many delegates each candidate gets. Those delegates then attend a county caucus later in the month, which elects a certain number of delegates to attend the state convention, where the actual, real delegates are handed out.

    The whole process takes rather a long time, and since delegates can, in theory, change sides, people are wary of making too many predictions. But in reality, of course, delegates never do, and  it's very easy to make very accurate predictions about how things will play out once you have time to plug all the local caucus results into the right spreadsheet.

    Parent

    Yes, we can presume it went pretty well (none / 0) (#52)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:48:59 PM EST
    in a lot of places. The point is that if it didn't work in some places, or even one place, the process of democracy was perverted. How many places where it didn't work are you willing to accept?

    Parent
    I dunno. (none / 0) (#63)
    by sweetthings on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:02:12 PM EST
    I haven't read much in local media about widespread problems on the 4th. My caucus went great, but my friend had a much more disorganized experience. (he didn't report any malfeasance, just more chaos than would have been ideal) But I think you have cut organizers some slack...we went from 4 people in 2004 to over 250 at my location, and I'm sure other precincts saw an even bigger increase. There will always be hiccups when you attempt to expand a system by that kind of margin.

    Were those hiccups enough to invalidate the entire exercise? Maybe, but I'd want to see actual evidence. Quite a lot of people invested quite a lot of time into caucusing for their candidates. We shouldn't throw that out without a very good reason.

    Parent

    Now, what if the creation of that chaos (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:21:55 PM EST
    is a campaign tactic? Do you see that?

    Parent
    Exactly! Organized chaos. (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:33:06 PM EST
    And if you don't know what to look for you might mistake one for the other. This was the original point of the memo addressed in this diary.  Giving the Clinton campaign some guides on what to look for.

    It really strains credulity to believe that Obama caucus attendees independently decided to act in a certain way.

    Parent

    But doesn't it also strain credulity... (none / 0) (#86)
    by sweetthings on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:45:47 PM EST
    To assume that there is an organization rigging caucuses all across the nation, coordinating the actions of hundreds of thousands of people across thousands of locations, without any of their instructional pamphlets being leaked or any of their secret meetings being infiltrated?

    How long did it take for these to show up on the web? Hours? If the Obama campaign really is rigging the game, how on Earth are they keeping it so quiet?

    Parent

    And the thought (none / 0) (#90)
    by independent voter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:58:28 PM EST
    that group of 18-22 year olds is ever anything besides unorganized chaos is laughable. I have 4 children ages 19,20,21,22...I know what gatherings of they and their friends look like.

    Parent
    Yes, and I'm sure in the womb ... (none / 0) (#92)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 05:07:53 PM EST
    your kids also knew what a "precinct chair" was and the how to abuse sign-in sheets?

    That fish is four days old.  Not buying it.

    Parent

    They learned it at Camp Obama (none / 0) (#107)
    by DudeE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:50:19 PM EST
    http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/2/16/143326/350

    "Robert Creamer, who pleaded guilty of bank fraud and failure to pay federal taxes in Aug, 2005, and who spent the second half of 2006 living at the Federal Corectional Institute in Terre Haute, Indiana, taught at "Camp Obama" in 2007. His job: to instruct interns and volunteers in political organizing--the very abuses of which sent him to jail."

    According to the Washington Times story, Daniel B., Chance, a retired oil man,  voted for former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee in the Maryland Republican primary in the morning. He then spent the afternoon making calls from the phone bank at the Obama campaign's Baltimore County Headquarters in Towson.

    Parent

    there's been documentation... (none / 0) (#106)
    by DudeE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:43:25 PM EST
    ...at least in terms of the "Obamacrat" strategy of recruiting Republicans and Independents to temporarily switch party affiliation to show up at the caucus for Obama (witnessed in at least FL and MI).  Hard to believe that such an aggressive move is the sole effort to push the envelope in caucusing tactics...

    Parent
    Especially the dancing. (none / 0) (#99)
    by Ben Masel on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 06:26:44 PM EST
    No Obama supporter would dance unless ordered to.

    Parent
    Uh...no? (none / 0) (#83)
    by sweetthings on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:32:01 PM EST
    I'm not quite sure what you're driving at.

    If there's actual evidence that the Obama campaign is attempting to create chaos at caucuses as some kind of rigging attempt, then yeah, there's a problem.

    If chaos results from having a 7000% increase in turnout, (as was the case in the one instance I have heard about first-hand) then I don't think there's a problem, even if most of that turnout is Obama voters. Increased participation is a good thing.

    Parent

    It will be another 18 days before the Texas (none / 0) (#27)
    by Angel on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:29:12 PM EST
    caucus results will be known.  How about that?  County conventions aren't until March 29th.  

    Parent
    No solid caucus numbers until June (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:36:40 PM EST
    in any caucus state.  Each step revisits the process, and the delegate allocations to different candidates can change again and again.

    That's why the media guesses of delegate counts differ so greatly -- yet the counts are being treated as reason to pressure a candidate to quit.

    Another example of media trying to run this race, rather than letting voters complete their processes.

    Parent

    Anonymous? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Jgarza on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:03:54 PM EST
    I love the lack of evidence.  Making statements doesn't make them true

    Bonnie spoke to the professor (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:07:01 PM EST
    that's not quite anonymous.

    Parent
    Anecdotal evidence... (none / 0) (#5)
    by mike in dc on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:07:37 PM EST
    ...is generally not accepted as substantive for a good reason.

    They are not definitive. (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Joelarama on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:14:44 PM EST
    But they often indicate the need for further inquiry.

    Parent
    Gotta say. . . (none / 0) (#7)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:14:21 PM EST
    I can't really see a lot of Obama supporters arriving together at a caucus site as some form of dirty trick.  I mean, that's what's supposed to happen, right?

    The sneak-inny voters is a pretty lame accusation without details, numbers, specific incidents, etc.  Sounds like sour grapes to me.

    Finally, even if some of these things happened it doesn't seem likely they originated with Obama or his campaign but rather with overly enthusiastic supporters.  Which wouldn't make it right, but doesn't really make them improper Obama tactics.

    Bu it does point to another (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by tree on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:18:41 PM EST
    reason why the caucus system should be canned.

    Parent
    Unquestionably. . . (none / 0) (#18)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:20:38 PM EST
    the caucuses are just weird.

    But that's a question for another day.  I'm certainly not suggesting that we should call the results of this years caucuses into question simply because they're caucuses.

    Parent

    Just the beginning (none / 0) (#58)
    by faux facsimile on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:57:37 PM EST
    If you're going to argue about an arbitrary and bizarre system, their a plenty of worthy targets.

    -Superdelegates (and their selection process)

    -Voting calendar (why do certain states go early and get to 'matter')

    -Delegate count per state (Vermont and Wyoming have the same number of delegates - yet one has almost twice as many Democrats?)

    By comparison, the electoral college is almost logical.

    At any event, these are the arguments that should happen before, not most of the way through, the nominating process (re: MI and FL too).

    Parent

    Just assume for a second ... (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:00:30 PM EST
    that these weren't Obama supporters, but a group who you felt were hostile to your right to participate.

    Then would you still just call it "sour grapes"?

    Remind me again who is supposed to be the "win at any cost" candidate?

    Parent

    My one quibble... (none / 0) (#11)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:16:26 PM EST
    ...with your characterization. I wouldn't call them overly enthusiastic, I would call them sneaky and borderline sleazy. But I agree that they were probably freelancing and that these types of supporters undoubtedly exist on both sides.

    Parent
    So if this was happening why did the Clinton (none / 0) (#29)
    by Salt on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:30:21 PM EST
    Clinton Campaign the behavior more forcefully not doing so was a mistake.

    Parent
    Probably was... (none / 0) (#51)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:47:47 PM EST
    ...but let's face it they have been very effectively put into the damned if you and damned if you don't corner. It's very disheartening, really.

    Parent
    He won just about every caucus (none / 0) (#12)
    by magster on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:16:33 PM EST
    in February by 2:1 margins.  To say that dirty tricks led to these results is a big stretch.

    You went to a caucus in Denver, and if I recall, you were annoyed by the Obama supporters, but you didn't say they stole your precinct with dirty tricks.  My precinct in Parker was 2:1 Obama and tediously boring.  And Clinton supporters dominated the County Convention in Castle Rock last weekend, directing traffic to an entrance to be greeted and recruited by the campaign.

    I don't agree that the issues raised in this post are really legitimate or widespread.

    absolutely not true (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:31:35 PM EST
    Here's my live-blog of the caucus. Not one negative word about Obama folks.

    Parent
    I apologize... (none / 0) (#45)
    by magster on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:41:04 PM EST
    ...for saying you were annoyed by Obama supporters.  

    Parent
    Caucuses disenfranchise thousands of voters (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by shoephone on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:25:47 PM EST
    It's the main reson the Washington State League of Women Voters is opposed to caucuses and supports primaries.

    Parent
    This is not the most improtant factor (none / 0) (#36)
    by Manuel on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:34:50 PM EST
    I don't see these tactics as being a first order factor in Obama's caucus victories.  Clinton's underperformance is due to an enthusiasm gap, campaign strategy, campaign organization, resources, and the characteristics of the respective support groups (Obama supporters generally have more time and inclination to show up).

    If the GE were a caucus, Obama would be a shoo in.

    Parent

    Obama stole the enthusiasm (none / 0) (#100)
    by Ben Masel on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 06:28:36 PM EST
    I think this is an irresponsible post (none / 0) (#24)
    by moe21885 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:25:55 PM EST
    You've got zero evidence and a bunch of hearsay. I could post some hearsay about precincts where Clinton people shut doors on Obama people, etc.

    This wouldn't hold up in a court and shouldn't hold up here.

    hearsay? (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:40:18 PM EST
    Are we in court? These are reports, including first hand ones.

    As one commenter above noted, no one is saying there were dirty tricks but there are allegations of them, allegations which caused the Texas Dem Party to send out this memo (pdf) on voting day, and they may warrant an investigation.

    The Texas Democratic Party has been informed through various sources that the Presidential Campaigns have encouraged or are taking part in the following activities that are NOT in compliance with the Rules and Laws applicable to this Primary Election:

    1. Campaign workers, volunteers and/or supporters have obtained copies of blank sign-in sheets for precinct conventions and are having them filed in now with the desire of turning them in once the convention gets underway. These sign-in sheets are invalid and will not be considered in determining the allocation of delegates. See Tex. Dem. Pty. Rule. IV(B)(6).

    If no one did anything wrong, that's great, and an investigation would bring that out.

    Parent

    okay (none / 0) (#57)
    by moe21885 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:55:46 PM EST
    Does that mention a particular campaign engaging in those things?

    I mean seriously, have differences with Obama, don't support him, whatever, but you're intimating wrongdoing where there is no proof beyond a guy on the internet.

    Parent

    you need to read before posting (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:16:07 PM EST
    I reported the Clinton voters' complaints hours before the TX memo went out. It did not come from someone on the internet. There have been no reports anywhere that Clinton supporters engaged in that particular tactic, only Obama supporters. The fact that the memo went out shows that those incidents were reported. Since there were no corresponding complaints by Obama supporters, it's rather obvious who they are referring to, just as the second complaint listed in the memo pertains to complaints in Ohio against the Clinton campaign, even though the memo doesn't name them.

    If you aren't going to follow the links provided in the post as source material, you shouldn't comment in a way that refutes the post.

    Parent

    There is corroborating evidence (none / 0) (#62)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:00:31 PM EST
    The difference between Texas caucus going results and Texas popular vote results.

    Parent
    Who will investigate? (none / 0) (#66)
    by faux facsimile on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:06:50 PM EST
    At this point in the primary season, who is in a position to investigate? Seems like just about everybody would have their own reasons to either dig up dirt, or ensure that any investigation got deep-sixed.

    Given the Florida/Michigan fiasco, I certainly can't see any state party helping in an effort that might negate the legitimacy of their results, unless they were certain the results would be okay, or unless enough wrongdoing were already uncovered to catch the public eye.

    Parent

    This isn't a court of law.... (none / 0) (#49)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:45:11 PM EST
    ...I am not one that is jumping up and down yelling election fraud over this, but to hold up the court of law standard on a blog means that most of us can't participate as we are not all lawyers. It's like the amount of stuff that we are permitted to talk about it whittling down to nothing.

    Parent
    Howabout Probable Cause? (none / 0) (#59)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:58:26 PM EST
    And we don't even need first hand accounts to establish probably cause.

    Texas proves that something is going on in caucusses in general that forces them to deviate so much from popular votes.

    Whether that something is systemic or more explicitly exploited by the Obama folks at this point may not matter anymore.


    Parent

    Exhbit B: (none / 0) (#68)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:11:02 PM EST
    Washington State: 3 times as many voted in primary as caucus, results put Clinton and Obama in a near statistical tie.

    And of course the primary didn't count.

    Parent

    If he gives a victory speech (none / 0) (#76)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:20:53 PM EST
    He better give thanks to his most faithful and consistent supporters:  Mr. and Mrs. Rooolz.


    Parent
    So, (none / 0) (#65)
    by HeadScratcher on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:06:21 PM EST
    Now are all the Dems here, especially Clinton supporters, in favor of having people show photo I.D. before voting????

    The Dem Party and ACLU are against it...

    We should all be alarmed when there are (none / 0) (#69)
    by Angel on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:11:33 PM EST
    allegations of voting problems, whether through intimidation or just plan old unpreparedness on the part of the election staffs.  Ignore at your own peril.  

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#82)
    by standingup on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:31:38 PM EST
    but why would you ask or suggest this?  

    Parent
    Because Angel stated (none / 0) (#88)
    by independent voter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:53:31 PM EST
    in a post upthread "no ID, no vote" as if that is standard and accepted practice

    Parent
    No ID, No VOTE is for the CAUCUS. You must (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by Angel on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 05:03:11 PM EST
    have voted in the daytime election to vote in the caucus.  We've discussed this on earlier threads.  But that is the short answer.

    Parent
    hypocricy comes in all flavors (none / 0) (#73)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:19:34 PM EST
    Individuals may arrive who are not registered to vote in a particular precinct with the story that 'they just moved there.' Some places where this has been observed, the person really didn't fit the picture of somebody who had 'just moved into' the precinct. They were allowed to register to vote and to caucus. (I do not know whether this individual's vote has been certified or not.) Bottom line: know your precinct demographics and make note of individuals who are registering to vote on site. (If they are so excited about participating, why haven't they registered before?

      When Republicans make this assertion in general elections, people here scream about voter suppression and intimidation tactics. when Clinton does it, we now are to believe she just wants the rules followed?

       Clever.

    Posted over an hour ago. (none / 0) (#97)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 05:29:04 PM EST
    Nothing but crickets.

    Parent
    The answer is... (none / 0) (#112)
    by DudeE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:59:17 PM EST
    ...in understanding that there's a fundamental difference between a primary/caucus and a general election.  One is run by the rules of the party and the other is subject to both state and Federal elections laws.

    Parent
    So (none / 0) (#114)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 07:37:16 AM EST
     your theory is that the nomination process is fair game for the same tactics that we call voter suppression and intimidation in a general election because...? I can't really discern your answer but I'd be intrigued to know why endeavoring to prevent votes from being cast/counted is bad in one context and acceptable in the other.  

     

    Parent

    Why can't all of us be for counting (none / 0) (#87)
    by hillaryisbest on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:51:03 PM EST
    every vote and ensuring fairness?  If there were irregularities or intimidation used by either campaign then that calls for further investigation?  Voters rights seemed so important when we were talking about the mail in vote issue.  Now all of a sudden voter's rights don't seem so important when it comes to caucuses.  Are some of you even listening to yourselves?

    because when you count every vote (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:55:38 PM EST
    then Obama doesn't win.

    Parent
    When I two-stepped in Texas (none / 0) (#93)
    by zfran on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 05:11:01 PM EST
    the caucus was unorganized, there were about 4 or 5 other precinct voting in this one precinct so we were divided by pricinct (all fine so far), however, we were not asked to "sign in", and were told at 10:00pm when all voters in line to vote the first time had finished, that we didn't need to show id, voter id, slip of paper to show you voted, nothing. In fact, we were told (at least at our precinct that all would be assumed we all had indeed voted earlier in the day and belonged at this caucus. At the time, it was my first caucus (in which we never did "caucus") and after reading other experiences, thought it was very mishandled, considering they knew how large the turnout would be.

    broke every rule :-) (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by RalphB on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 05:21:49 PM EST
    Are there any legal (none / 0) (#96)
    by Andy08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 05:21:59 PM EST
    actions pending in TX regarding what happened with the caucus forms being distributed earlier & other dirty tricks?
    Did it go beyond that day's complaints?

    Any videos (none / 0) (#102)
    by DaleA on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:12:58 PM EST
    photos, or tapes of this sort of thing. Surely someone caught it on tape.

    Electability (none / 0) (#103)
    by Donna Darko on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:29:36 PM EST
    are all strong Republican states. Meaning these states will go to John McCain in November

    Clinton will have won at least eight of the 11 largest states, including must-win battleground states such as Florida and Ohio

    The question of "electability" must be revisited. And although many polls have shown Obama to be the tougher competitor against Republican John McCain

    Today, Gallup says they're tied against McCain.

    Obama (D) 46%, McCain (R) 44%
    Clinton (D) 47%, McCain (R) 45%

    inexplicable (none / 0) (#113)
    by dc2008 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 12:04:30 AM EST
    Individuals arriving in large groups, and people saying they just moved to the state, are both supremely normal things. There's nothing improper about a campaign organizing a group of people, or supporters self-organizing in that way. If it has a disruptive effect, that's an issue to be dealt with, but absent further information of an intent by the Obama campaign to disrupt the caucasing of Clinton's supporters through sending large groups all together, I don't see any good reason to view it as anything other than legitimate political organizing to get people to the voting spot.

    Furthermore, what exactly does it mean that people "don't exactly look like they just moved to the state"? That is bizarre! How strange (or I guess expected, actually) that Jeralyn uncritically let this pass.

    The third point raises questions if it's true, but since no actual locations where this happened have been listed, I would have hoped an esteemed attorney like Jeralyn would have been more careful about distinguishing between hearsay written by a partisan on one side -- hearsay accusations are a dime a dozen, especially when passions are running high, after all -- and proven facts.

    Once again, a shocking level of anti-Obama bias by TalkLeft. I'm not saying that this information does not merit discussion, only that I would have hoped that the blogger as an attorney who clearly understands hearsay would just put it up with the needed cautions. In particular the inexplicable "don't exactly look like they just moved to the state" comment should have set off warning bells.

    By this point (none / 0) (#115)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 08:03:38 AM EST
     any reader who does not realize that every post written about the nomination race is intentionally and purposefully crafted to promote Clinton and denigrate Obama is never going to get it.

     It's the astounding heavy-handed clumsiness and disregard for how positions asserted now will be diametrically opposed to positions certain to be asserted once the general election campaign starts that is remarkable.