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More West Virginia And Other Matters

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Other Politics
Posted on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:11:44 PM EST
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Tell us what you know about today's West Virginia race or anything. I'll add anything I find out in this post.

I saw a Fox flash that 70% of WV voters said Hillary Clinton shares their values. 45% say Obama shares their values.

63% say Clinton is honest. 47% say Obama is honest. [More...]

61% says Clinton more likely to beat McCain. 37% say Obama is more likely to beat McCain.

Uh oh, 51% say Obama shares the views of Jeremiah Wright.

63% say suspending the gas tax is a good idea.

Sirota on Fox. Pretty funny.Doing really well actually. Nice job David. Disclosure, David is a friend of mine.

This is an Open Thread.

Comments now closed.

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    • More West Virginia And Other Matters | 205 comments (205 topical)
    FOX news asks Clinton supporter if her (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:17:16 PM EST
    continued campaigning and effort to win the nomination is hurting Obama. Ya' gotta love the media.
    blah blah blah (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Muzza on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:19:10 PM EST
    I don't watch of these networks anymore - CNN, MSNBC, Fox - they are all pathetic. Obama's control over the media & their intoxication with him is sickening.

    Hillary has to depend on us!

    Parent

    Correct answer: (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by MarkL on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:20:20 PM EST
    "I sure as heck hope so!"

    Parent
    Better correct answer (none / 0) (#147)
    by ineedalife on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:07:18 PM EST
    Hillary is not his Momma!! Stop whining and start campaigning Obama!

    Parent
    he is (none / 0) (#191)
    by CanadianDem on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:32:51 PM EST
    actually. For the GE.

    Parent
    5 things to watch for in WVa (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by waldenpond on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:19:33 PM EST
    Article from Politico...

    1. How goes Mason County? In 1988 and 2000 -- the most recent elections with no incumbent president on the ballot -- the county of less than 30,000 residents on the Ohio border was within 5 percentage points of the actual statewide primary results.

    2. The Edwards protest vote. John Edwards, the former North Carolina senator who ended his Democratic presidential campaign in January, remains on the ballot in West Virginia.

    3. Turnout in the southern coal fields, the northern panhandle and the Ohio River counties.

    4.) Television coverage.

    5) Fundraising bounce.

    And as always... ignore the commentors at the article.

    sorry I posted this above, I had not read down far (none / 0) (#35)
    by bjorn on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:29:51 PM EST
    enough, thanks for this info!

    Parent
    All this stuff (5.00 / 5) (#9)
    by coolit on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:21:04 PM EST
    that I see from Obama supporters about how not voting for him is cutting off your nose to spite your face completely ignores human nature.

    They have been arrogant, cocky and he has been hypocritical and messianic.  I don't support him out of disgust.   I have been completely and utterly turned off.  It stinks of some bad stuff.

    Human nature tells you that when someone makes you feel like that, you will resent them for a long time and certainly not vote for them for president of your country.

    It's kinda like how Bush is surprised when all our allies refuse to support us in Iraq after his audacity in the run up.  Even though their lack of support is causing a tragedy in that part of the world, they wont support it.

    Does that help you Obama supporters?

    The attitude reeks of (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Democratic Cat on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:27:58 PM EST
    "Lie back and think of England."

    Not all Obama supporters, by any stretch. But enough.

    Parent

    haha (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by coolit on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:32:16 PM EST
    just looked up what that meant on wikipedia.  i've never heard of that, but see what you mean.

    Parent
    lol (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by Salo on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:43:40 PM EST
    English couldn't have been that bad at it.  Or there would be no English.

    Parent
    I would need 2 noses :) (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by nycstray on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:35:17 PM EST
    Voting Obama OR McCain would go against my  beliefs (on issues and other things)  {grin}

    Parent
    I'm still waiting for the "reaching out" (5.00 / 3) (#53)
    by kmblue on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:36:40 PM EST
    by Obama and his supporters to begin.
    It's a good thing I'm not holding my breath,
    because I have a feeling I'll be waiting a long time.

    We have some very nice Obama supporters posting on TL, please consider yourselves excepted from this.
    (looking at you Dalton, among others)

    Parent

    Maybe they cannot afford to yet (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by bjorn on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:39:28 PM EST
    even though they keep saying it is over.  We might see it pick up after June 3rd, that is if it still looks like he will be the one!

    Parent
    right now i'd call it St Funity. (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Salo on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:49:24 PM EST
    The patron saint of stfu and hold hands.

    Parent
    I'm guessing you read 'electa' (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by waldenpond on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:43:12 PM EST
    today?

    She referred to posters as you sure come across as bigots.
    Threatening...And, it will be you who gives him the GE should he win. Views WV as It's a blatant racist state...

    Calls Obama the champion and phenominal then gives a shout out to "GET OVER IT".  

    and then the coup de grace....Won't you join hands with us to let healing begin?

    It does make you laugh and shake your head.  It's times like these you wish you could reach through the screen and give a person a good flick on the nose or a smack upside the head.  :)

    Parent

    stfu-unity! (5.00 / 0) (#90)
    by Salo on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:46:44 PM EST


    Parent
    peon, racist, asses... (5.00 / 0) (#102)
    by coolit on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:50:21 PM EST
    like us are ruining america.  so let's change our ways and support Obama!!!!

    Parent
    If Hillary had one delegate... (5.00 / 0) (#101)
    by Dawn Davenport on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:49:42 PM EST
    ...for each time I've heard an Obama supporter telling someone to "get over it; she lost," she'd be 200 delegates ahead of him.

    Parent
    Really... (5.00 / 0) (#113)
    by magisterludi on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:53:28 PM EST
    I keep flashing on the scene in "Moonstruck" when Cher slaps a lovestruck Nicholas Cage, telling him "Snap out of it!".

    Parent
    I'm assuming Electa is just the (none / 0) (#89)
    by tree on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:46:36 PM EST
    latest sock puppet of ObamaMama.

    Parent
    Yea, I saw Electa (none / 0) (#154)
    by kmblue on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:09:53 PM EST
    She and I are in love!

    Parent
    I just saw your diary. You did good Dalton. (5.00 / 0) (#93)
    by Teresa on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:47:16 PM EST


    Parent
    "Pimp" it to us (none / 0) (#106)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:50:37 PM EST
    and we'll definitely read it.

    I'll read it after work ;-).

    Thanks for taking the time to write it.

    Parent

    Read It (none / 0) (#155)
    by flashman on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:10:33 PM EST
    think I might have actually commented on it.  I have to go back and make sure.  We don't have many at TL who reads the "off the main" diaries.  Too bad about that.

    Parent
    I'm looking at adjacent PA counties (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by andgarden on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:23:27 PM EST
    you can see them here.

    I think my prediction of a 35-40 pt win is well within range. Anything less than 65/35 would shock me.

    Politico also said to watch (5.00 / 0) (#32)
    by bjorn on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:28:50 PM EST
    one particular county returns tonight. I think it was Mason county?  Apparently, the state always seems to follow the trend in that one county and the county polls show Clinton 68% and Obama 16%...of course that is not the actual vote, but it supports your hypothesis regarding the PA counties.

    Parent
    bjorn...if that was true, it would support that 50 (none / 0) (#175)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:20:01 PM EST
    point win we were talking about for HIllary!!

    Parent
    keep your fingers crossed! (none / 0) (#193)
    by bjorn on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:34:04 PM EST


    Parent
    I live in Westmoreland county in western PA..... (none / 0) (#117)
    by Mrwirez on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:55:27 PM EST
    those four counties you are talking about, Washington,Greene, Fayette, Bedford..   Is how the whole state of WV is... NO Kidding.

    Obama running around saying "He's the man" might backfire. One could only hope, I want to win.

    Parent

    Truman Chafin (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Muzza on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:24:55 PM EST
    http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net/discussion/showthread.php?t=10472

    Hillary was endorsed by WV Senate Majority Leader, Truman Chafin.

    This exit poll could be brutal (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by andgarden on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:29:15 PM EST
    Now here's a question: will it overstate or understate Hillary's actually win?

    And another observation: the fact that the networks are paying for an exit poll indicates to me that they will be covering the results. This will not be good for Obama.

    Get Out of My Head! (5.00 / 0) (#132)
    by BDB on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:01:39 PM EST
    I was just thinking that.

    You know the only thing the so-called liberal media loves almost as much as bashing Clinton is bashing the democratic frontrunner as out-of-touch with real Americans.  Now that they think Clinton is done, I presume they will resume their second favorite meme.  

    Parent

    Exit poll is giving some great information (none / 0) (#199)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:38:45 PM EST
    Obama not having done campaigning in WVA has Hillary getting only 36% stating untrustworthy vs. Obama getting 51% on that question.

    I've always said his negative campaigning was a big contributor to the numbers she gets on that question! Every politician should expect at least 30% on that question, but her unfavorables were way out of alignment with who she is.


    Parent

    Exit Polls show 2/3 said Economy was #1 (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by nycstray on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:31:37 PM EST
    Saw this while I was at the bank on CNN. So she has a huge win in WV and they say the economy is their overwhelming issue  :)

    I'm wondering why (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by kmblue on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:31:41 PM EST
    an equal number of Obama and Clinton supporters
    said gender!  Whattup with that!

    Obama says "It's about my church..." (5.00 / 0) (#46)
    by Exeter on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:33:25 PM EST
    ...not my pastor." Guess what, as bad Wright has been, his church has many more potential pitfalls for Obama. Not only does the church regularly promote and collaborate with Farrakhan and NOI, but there is this gem:  According to Obama's church website, the "Black Liberation Theology" practiced by the church is guided by Dr. James Cone and his book, Black Power and Black Theology. According to Salon, Cone has said:

    Malcolm X was "not far wrong" when he called the white man "the devil," and "if God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him."

     

    Why are some folks still (none / 0) (#58)
    by bjorn on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:37:38 PM EST
    worried about what was said in the 60s by Malcolm X?  I was born in 58, but if I was older I might have agreed with some of what Malcolm said given the context of the country at the time.  It is better to focus on what is being said now, and that is why Rev Wright is troublesome.  Like Obama said, he seems to still be living in the 60s but the country has come a long way since then.

    Parent
    Exactly... (none / 0) (#91)
    by Exeter on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:46:52 PM EST
    and the church that Wright created and Obama still attends is absurdly behind the times.

    Parent
    Agree (none / 0) (#104)
    by squeaky on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:50:33 PM EST
    And so is the situation AA's in america, waaaay behind the times, imo.

    Parent
    Agree... (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by madamab on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:54:16 PM EST
    and so is the situation of women of all colors in this country.

    Parent
    Yup (none / 0) (#116)
    by squeaky on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:55:13 PM EST


    Parent
    But not so for those (none / 0) (#144)
    by tree on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:07:04 PM EST
    like Obama and Wright. Not to say that racism can't still affect them or that it doesn't in subtle ways, but there are now blacks who have entered the upper classes and they are not "waaaay behind the times". There's now a class divide among blacks and only the poorer classes have been left behind, as it is with the poorer classes among every other group.

    Parent
    yes (none / 0) (#153)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:09:26 PM EST
    much of the race problems that remain with are really class problems and not race problems at all.

    Parent
    Just read an article in the Seattle Gay News (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by shoephone on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:37:25 PM EST
    that posited Obama lost a lot of votes in PA because of his refusal to interview with any of the gay press there and because Hillary and Chelsea went out of their way to court the gay vote.

    Tell me again how Hillary is supposed to be the bigoted one...

    Hillary has a OR LGBT Steering Committee (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by nycstray on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:40:50 PM EST
    She announced on May 9th

     

    Parent

    Chelsea (5.00 / 0) (#172)
    by janarchy on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:17:17 PM EST
    went on a Gay pub crawl in a number of states to court the Gay vote. There are great photos of her at several of the stops including Philly (where she was with Ed Rendell and a happy lesbian Hillary supporter grabbed Chelsea's butt) and in Oregon where there's a great photo of Chelsea surrounded by cross-dressed bear-types. She looks like she's having the time of her life.

    And yet Obama wouldn't even been seen with Gavin Newsome of San Francisco. Sad, sad, sad.

    Parent

    That Was Poor (none / 0) (#184)
    by squeaky on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:26:27 PM EST
    But it seems to me that is had little to do with being anti gay but much to do with not supporting gay marriage which was what Gavin Newsom's was most know for in 2004. Both Hillary and Obama are against gay marriage and way behind the curve on that one, imo.

    Parent
    I would agree (none / 0) (#202)
    by janarchy on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:48:40 PM EST
    except for the McClurkin thing and the fact that Obama hasn't exactly been seen in the company of any GLBT spokesmen. I don't count Andrew Sullivan, Dan Savage or Rachel Maddow as speaking for the community.

    Parent
    Bugger (none / 0) (#203)
    by janarchy on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:49:15 PM EST
    spokesPEOPLE obviously. I shake my fist at the lack of an edit button!

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#206)
    by squeaky on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:57:38 PM EST
    The McClurkin thing was a bummer, and a mistake, imo. He made a political calculation, he is a pol. Bottom line though is his votes, though, and I do not see him as any less pro gay than Hillary, now or in the future.

    Parent
    Obama: Anti-Gay (none / 0) (#80)
    by Muzza on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:44:01 PM EST
    Obama is too embaressed to be seen with the gay community. Why so I ask? Why so careful? And why hang out with homophobes like McClurkin?

    Parent
    I think he has pandered to anti-gay voters (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by shoephone on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:03:14 PM EST
    in the worst way. The McClurkin episode really set me off. Fear of being associated... refusing to be photographed with Gavin Newsome, refusing to interview with PA's gay media, even his lame comment in a debate about how he and Biden didn't get HIV-tested together. It's stupid on his part. He assumes that gays will support him in the GE no matter what. It's never good to take any part of your party's base for granted and yet Obama's campaign has made pissing off parts of the base (blue collar folks, women, seniors, gays) into a badge of honor.

    His supporters denigrating an entire state (WV) and implying all white voters there are racist seems a very odd strategy to securing a win in November.

    Axelrod's and Brazile's comments about not needing so many historic Democratic voters is going to have a long-term ripple effect on the party and on future elections.

    Parent

    LGBT (none / 0) (#126)
    by VicAjax on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:59:37 PM EST

    here's Obama's interview with The Advocate:

    LINK

    if you listened to his MLK speech at Ebenezer, he directly chided AA's for their intolerance of gays.  and he's said that he wants DADT repealed and civil unions for same sex couples with full rights.

    Parent

    His record on gay issues (5.00 / 0) (#138)
    by madamab on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:04:06 PM EST
    does not compare to HRC's. She has been a very outspoken supporter for quite some time.

    And the Donnie McClurkin thing was icky.

    Parent

    Identical Record (none / 0) (#169)
    by squeaky on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:16:22 PM EST
    According to the Congressional scorecard by the Human Rights Campaign both Hillary and Obama scored 89.

    and OT footnote both Kennedy and Kerry scored 100.

    Parent

    The length of her commitment (none / 0) (#180)
    by madamab on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:25:04 PM EST
    and his cannot be compared.

    Parent
    Irrelevant (none / 0) (#198)
    by squeaky on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:38:32 PM EST
    IMO. It is true that Hillary is 14 years older than Obama if that is what you mean.  It all boils down to how they vote, and both are in either in the dark ages regarding gay marriage, or are afraid that supporting it would make them unelectable. Bad either way, imo.

    If Hillary has been supporting gay rights for an incomparable length of time unlike Obama, than she should be even more ashamed of herself for not supporting gay marriage.

    Parent

    He talks out of both sides (5.00 / 0) (#143)
    by shoephone on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:06:34 PM EST
    of his mouth. Having McClurkin headline for him in South Carolina sent a much bigger message than his later comments at Ebenezer. He's a hypocrite. And, at least according to the Seattle Gay News, he proved it again in PA.

    Parent
    the guy (none / 0) (#158)
    by VicAjax on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:12:03 PM EST
    who wrote that op-ed was a Hillary supporter who had given $1000 to her campaign.

    Parent
    I appreciate his MLK day remarks (5.00 / 0) (#163)
    by kempis on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:13:45 PM EST
    But it's amazing how much of a bad taste I still have over the McClurkin matter. I had actually sent him a donation the week before the McClurkin gospel tour hit the fan. I was not happy.

    I appreciate all the remarks he has made on behalf of gay rights, but I don't trust him. I don't trust him because it seems to me that there's a real pattern here: the guy will pander to anyone. There doesn't seem to be a "core" there....It sort of goes along with his "present" votes in the IL senate.


    Parent

    He just copied those positions from her. (5.00 / 0) (#176)
    by Joan in VA on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:21:10 PM EST
    He has no LGBT issues on his website. Same as nothing for women.

    Parent
    actually (none / 0) (#179)
    by VicAjax on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:24:26 PM EST
    he's got a whole section dedicated to LGBT:

    pride.barackobama.com

    Parent

    Guess he should put it in the pull- (none / 0) (#190)
    by Joan in VA on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:31:30 PM EST
    down issues menu like the rest. How would you know that address? Does he have women's issues at some other address also?

    Parent
    heh (none / 0) (#192)
    by VicAjax on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:33:47 PM EST
    everything's always wrong with BHO.

    he's got a freakin' LGBT page. just cede the point, rather than moving the goalposts... oh, wait...

    Parent

    Fine. I'll assume he has no interest (none / 0) (#205)
    by Joan in VA on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:52:13 PM EST
    in women's issues then. I don't need his vote. I wasn't saying anything beyond what I said which was I went to his website and couldn't find info (even though everyone says go to his website and you'll find all his positions).

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#152)
    by Steve M on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:08:58 PM EST
    you can scold AA's all you want, it seems to me, but it wasn't intolerant AA's who put all those gay marriage initiatives on the ballot across the country.  I sense a little bit of Sista Souljah in the air.

    The message may be entirely accurate, but I still feel a little discomfort at the thought of Obama becoming some sort of Bill Cosby figure.

    Parent

    With Many Friends In The Entertainment (none / 0) (#182)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:25:37 PM EST
    industry, I have heard more than a few stories about Bill Cosby not liking non-black persons.  
    But listening to some of his rants, I can see how you might think it true.

    Parent
    Re: the first openly gay person Obama knew (none / 0) (#187)
    by Evie on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:29:21 PM EST
    "He wasn't proselytizing all the time"

    Unlike other gays and their gay gospel?

    Parent

    What do y'all think? (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by halstoon on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:41:28 PM EST
    Is this racist? Or--as the vendor claims--cute?

    Uh (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Steve M on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:43:26 PM EST
    That's quite racist.  What is the context?

    Parent
    A bar owner in Marietta, GA who is an ardent (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by halstoon on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:51:59 PM EST
    conservative is selling the shirts. As for context, I would argue the implication is clear. As to the GWB/Curious connections, they do share a name, and Bush is lampooned for his lack of speaking skills, which gets equated with intelligence. The Obama context seems to be purely racial. But that's just how I see it.

    The bar owner also put on his outdoor sign:

     I wish Hillary had married OJ.
    &
     No habla espanol--and never will.

    Guy's a douche and a moron if you ask me. I certainly won't be visiting his pub.

    Parent

    well said! (none / 0) (#118)
    by bjorn on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:55:59 PM EST


    Parent
    Charming fellow (none / 0) (#156)
    by Steve M on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:11:30 PM EST
    He should be run out of town for giving Georgia a bad name.

    Parent
    This is about equal (none / 0) (#162)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:13:08 PM EST
    to the Hillary nutcrackers.  The difference is the nutcrackers are perfectly fine to sell in about any store.  

    Parent
    excellent point! (none / 0) (#171)
    by bjorn on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:16:59 PM EST
    Not too many cries to take them off the shelf.

    Parent
    About as cute as (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by samanthasmom on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:53:01 PM EST
    this

    Parent
    Outrageously racist (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:58:53 PM EST
    Horrible.

    Parent
    What do you think (5.00 / 0) (#129)
    by Cream City on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:00:27 PM EST
    of what that t-shirt seller, the bar owner, puts up about Clinton?  That's in your link, too -- yet no comment from you about that.

    Parent
    Of course not (5.00 / 0) (#151)
    by samanthasmom on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:08:29 PM EST
    That's just funny.

    Parent
    That guy's a total wingnut. Did (5.00 / 0) (#140)
    by Joan in VA on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:05:41 PM EST
    you read the side story? What a jerk. And the answer is yes.

    Parent
    racist but I am not sure what to call (none / 0) (#78)
    by bjorn on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:43:44 PM EST
    the correlation between GWB and Curious George. No one has been compared to curious George more than GWB.  So I guess I could see why some people might not think it was racist. We all did evolve from other primates.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 0) (#95)
    by Steve M on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:47:49 PM EST
    the monkey is named Curious George, not Curious Barack.

    Is that even a Curious George picture?  Looks like a generic monkey to me.

    Parent

    I would think (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by kmblue on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:50:29 PM EST
    the Curious George folk would sue.  Copyright infringement and all that.  Our current President is incurious George and always has been.

    The t-shirt is racist, no doubt, and very offensive.
    Kinda like the Hillary nutcracker.

    Parent

    As obvious as that is, it never occurred (none / 0) (#110)
    by bjorn on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:52:13 PM EST
    to me before...not sure what that says about me...but I always just thought GWB really does look like Curious George.

    Parent
    that's vile n/t (none / 0) (#170)
    by rilkefan on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:16:56 PM EST


    Parent
    Those exit poll numbers (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Benjamin3 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:48:26 PM EST
    seem to point to a pretty big night for Hillary.  I've heard turnout is heavy, maybe as much as 400,000

    That would be fantastic (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by nycstray on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:56:17 PM EST
    we need those popular votes :)

    Parent
    Yeah. the horse race spreadsheet on (none / 0) (#127)
    by Teresa on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:59:57 PM EST
    real clear politics doesn't predict that many.

    Parent
    Wow... (5.00 / 0) (#135)
    by Benjamin3 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:03:28 PM EST
    Just saw a new spread of exit polls numbers.  Hillary is winning like 70% of all her core groups across the board - women, seniors, working class, non college educated.  

    Turnout at last night's rally (5.00 / 0) (#139)
    by Cream City on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:05:10 PM EST
    by the WV governor, his regular "old-fashioned Democratic rally" held this year in Fairmont, is reported to have had an SRO turnout of more than 2,500.  I've been in the venue, and it must have been quite a squeeze -- and in a town of fewer than 20,000.

    Btw, Obama also was invited but declined to do more than one event in WV -- the one with veterans where he made his controversial remark about antiwar protesters.  Not that he would pander, oh no, but WV has had more Iraqi war fatalities than most states, from the start.

    CNN's John King is a racist! (5.00 / 0) (#160)
    by Cream City on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:12:55 PM EST
    and so are other commenters I'm hearing in only the last several minutes -- all of whom talked about how Clinton draws far better with, quote, the "white working class."  As I understand the Obama Roolz, it would be acceptable to refer to those voters as "teh unenlightened as yet not having epiphanies"?

    Peace (5.00 / 3) (#168)
    by CST on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:15:31 PM EST
    So it's time to return to life as a normal non intiernet personality.  Some closing thoughts...

    Hillary supporters, if Obama wins the nomination, we NEED you in November.  I know Obama supporters get a lot off flack for saying otherwise, as they should, so I just wanted to make my views clear.  Also, a few reasons to vote FOR Obama in November.

    • He was one of the co-sponsers (and the only presidential co-sponser) of the Fair Pay Act.

    • He has a very consistent and strong view on closing Guantanamo Bay and making sure Habeus Corpus remains intact.  His advocacy on behalf of this issue earned him the support of the Lawyers for Guantanamo Bay detainees.

    • Judges - People give him crap for the fact that he may have once wanted to vote for Roberts.  Well, fact is, he didn't vote for Roberts.  Not only that, he voted to filibuster Scalia.

    • Iraq.  I am with BTD on this one, I don't care why he spoke out, if it was politically motivated or not.  Fact is, he spoke out, and he was right.

    • He is, in fact, a Democrat and he has voted with democrats consistently over 95% of the time.

    This is kinda a long post so I'll end it with that, I'll be back with some more reasons next time....

    thank you (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by bjorn on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:18:26 PM EST


    Parent
    If only this had been the standard operating (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by Marvin42 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:27:11 PM EST
    procedure of all Obama supporters we would be in a very different world right now.

    Thanks.

    Parent

    West Virginia facts (4.00 / 4) (#4)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:18:22 PM EST
    State Flower: Rhododendron
    State Animal: Black Bear
    State Bird: Cardinal
    State Fruit: Golden Delicious Apple
    State Tree:  Sugar Maple
    State Insect: Honeybee
    State Fish:  Brook Trout

    Sounds pretty to me.  

    It is very pretty Stella. I hate to see people (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Teresa on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:21:14 PM EST
    dissing the state and the nice people I've met there.

    CNN is having their regular election night coverage. I wonder if MSNBC is covering this one?

    Parent

    It is (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by Steve M on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:22:39 PM EST
    one of the more beautiful states we have.  Of course, I'm objectively pro-mountain.

    Parent
    One unexpected benefit of this place (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by tree on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:43:56 PM EST
    is getting to hear descriptions of states I've never visited, or only visited as a young tyke from people who've lived there. So many new places to visit now.  

    Parent
    Do. WV is stunning (none / 0) (#105)
    by Cream City on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:50:34 PM EST
    and be sure to get onto those back roads, real country roads.  And stop lots of times at the antiques stores and more -- but also at the artsy stores in the "big towns" like Morgantown.  And talk to the good folks in Fairmont's folklore projects (we all saw some of their students on tv during the most recent mining disaster there, not long ago and nearby, as the students rushed over to assist).  

    I agree that it has been great to have the encouragement to find out more about many states; every primary sends me to census.gov's "quick facts."  But in the case of WV, I've been there and can fill in the data with wonderful experiences.

    That's one reason why I was amazed to read that Obama found himself "bored."  I know that the candidates don't get to stop and enjoy the scenery and people much -- but still, even one look out a car window at the scenery in WV is memorable.

    Parent

    Thanks. Its definitely on my list now. (none / 0) (#177)
    by tree on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:21:25 PM EST
    Unfortunately it will probably have to wait another 10 years until I retire, but I'll remember.

    Parent
    On The Promos They Said They Would Have (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:22:46 PM EST
    election night coverage from WVA.

    Parent
    The MSNBO panel (none / 0) (#157)
    by vigkat on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:11:30 PM EST
    is in place.  Timmeh just asked, "what does Hillary want"?  He says this is the question.  Olbermann and Tweety are listening with great interest.  The big riddle for all three apparently is that question. Tweety is really trying to figure her out, "because she is so complicated, and so is her husband."  He wonders whether she could be satisfied with something less than Bill had, i.e., the presidency. They're all being very careful not to suggest that this thing is over.  Questions, questions, questions. These guys are obsessed with what Hillary wants. Except for Chuck Todd; he's doing the math.

    Parent
    Well standard US politics (5.00 / 4) (#22)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:24:25 PM EST
    use identity politics so that you don't get class unity.  Cause class unity would be darn scary in America.  So, keep dividing the whites, the blacks, the hispanics and let the plutocrats do what they want.  

    Parent
    Hope you don't think (none / 0) (#16)
    by flashman on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:22:59 PM EST
    I'm dissing in my post just below.  Just some things I've heard.  Not meant to diss.

    Parent
    That's sad if it's true about the slow growth. (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Teresa on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:25:32 PM EST
    They need to emphasize tourism. It's really beautiful and also the closet place for those of us further south to experience good winter mountain snow.

    Parent
    Closest not closet. Though I am a closet (none / 0) (#28)
    by Teresa on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:27:30 PM EST
    snow lover!

    Parent
    I don't subscribe to cable. (none / 0) (#61)
    by seeker on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:38:07 PM EST
    I have watched the returns on the net.  At least until now, each cable network ran a special net broadcast of the returns.  As yet, I have found no evidence that they are doing so tonight.

    I guess I'll stick with C-SPAN, as I have been doing for the past few weeks,  To hell with them!

    Parent

    probably not! after all they need their (snark) (none / 0) (#84)
    by hellothere on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:45:09 PM EST
    pundits for other nights. you see their heads just might explode. ugg!

    Parent
    I must be hungry (5.00 / 4) (#20)
    by waldenpond on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:24:05 PM EST
    I saw the list and thought 'pan fried trout,  and baked apples drizzled with honey and syrup'

    Parent
    Winner of the Top chef quick challenge (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:26:09 PM EST
    Pick a random state and make a menu from their symbols.  Awesome.  

    Parent
    I Love Everything About Top Chef, Except The (none / 0) (#33)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:28:52 PM EST
    brutality....and that would make for a great Quick Fire Challenge.  All of a sudden, I want to go to WVa.

    Parent
    That's nice and all... (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by OrangeFur on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:27:47 PM EST
    ... but compare that to Maryland. Does West Virginia have a

    state crustacean? (blue crab)
    state dog? (Chesapeake Bay retriever)
    state fossil shell? (Ecphora gardnerae gardnerae)
    state boat? (skipjack)

    Parent

    did not look.... (none / 0) (#38)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:30:35 PM EST


    Parent
    State fossil is (none / 0) (#207)
    by FlaDemFem on Tue May 13, 2008 at 06:28:11 PM EST
    Silicified Mississippian Fossil Coral. And the state butterfly is the Monarch. Being landlocked, it doesn't need a state boat. And the state dog is probably the Walker Hound, you can hunt anything with them. And the only crustacean I ate that was native there, that I caught myself, was a crawfish, looks like a mini lobster. You can find them in creeks all over WV. Oh, and the state soil is Monongahela Silt Loam.

    Parent
    Except for the cardinal (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:31:16 PM EST
    You might have been describing Western Washington.

    Parent
    Do they have Cardinals on the west coast? (none / 0) (#57)
    by nycstray on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:37:31 PM EST
    I don't recall ever seeing one in CA. I see them occasionally here. Kinda cool to look out the window and see a red bird  :)

    Parent
    I've never seen (none / 0) (#100)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:49:32 PM EST
    a cardinal here.  Doesn't mean we don't have them.

    Parent
    Beautiful state... (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by kredwyn on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:31:21 PM EST
    Oddly...the Monogahela River flows up rather than down.

    Parent
    Omen: Denver, his most famous song about WV. (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:34:04 PM EST
    Hillary will win at the Convention.   Yes  Love omens.

    Almost heaven, west virginia
    Blue ridge mountains, shenandoah river
    Life is old there, older than the trees
    Younger than the mountains, blowing like a breeze

    Country roads, take me home
    To the place, I be-long
    West virginia, mountain momma
    Take me home, country roads

    All my memries, gather round her
    Miners lady, stranger to blue water
    Dark and dusty, painted on the sky
    Misty taste of moonshine, teardrop in my eye

    Country roads, take me home
    To the place, I be-long
    West virginia, mountain momma
    Take me home, country roads

    I hear her voice, in the mornin hours she calls to me
    The radio reminds me of my home far a-way
    And drivin down the road I get a feeling
    That I should have been home yesterday, yesterday

    Country roads, take me home
    To the place, I be-long
    West virginia, mountain momma
    Take me home, country roads



    Parent
    Beautiful! (5.00 / 0) (#166)
    by christinep on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:14:37 PM EST
    That song and that memory truly does bring a tear to the eye. In talking politics with a friend of mine here (the other mountain state, Colorado), she reminisced about her home state of West Virginia. She is a sorta Obama supporter out here, but she noted how her relatives and others in WVa might view Obama as a "step too far" for them. In saying so, she specifically observed that she thought this not because of his blackness but because of his difference/perceived difference in culture (the "bitter-cling" stuff coupled with incomplete portrait of the man.) She concluded with an emphasis on her fond memories of the straightforwardness that characterizes the people. While saying that she believed the people there tend to view anyone not born there with a little skepticism (at first), she contradicted some of the CW with her deep belief that West Virginians are incredibly open, honest. (From this lady who now considers herself far-removed from WVa, citified thoroughly, well-travelled, "high info," etc.

    Parent
    Those are the characteristics (none / 0) (#204)
    by Cream City on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:50:17 PM EST
    that come to me, exactly, when I think of the people I met there, just visitin'. :-)  Very straightforward, very interested in others -- not at all isolationist, even if the topography isolates many towns.  

    And still a state of many small farms, unlike mine which has lost so many to large agricultural conglomerates.  (And thus the reason why the area split from Virginia and stayed with the Union -- and to this day has few AAs.  It never had many, with no plantation economy and few slaves there compared to much of the rest of the region.)  

    Parent

    That song.... (none / 0) (#181)
    by kredwyn on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:25:12 PM EST
    the giant speakers on top of the truck, hot wings and blue...and a huge tailgate at Mountaineer Stadium.

    Oh and cup fights in he stands.

    Parent

    It's beautiful (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by samanthasmom on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:44:04 PM EST
    When I was a kid, I used to spend time every summer on my grandfather's farm near Parkersburg. My dad met my mom in Boston during WWII and left WV to join her family here, but his WV roots were strong.

    Parent
    WV is one of the most (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by Mrwirez on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:46:22 PM EST
    beautiful states, especially down by Summersville lake/New River Gorge area. I go to a small cabin down there every summer. That is the area where you always see people bungee jumping on TeeVee. Also the Cheat river is beautiful.

    http://tinyurl.com/5rm6gs
    http://tinyurl.com/6err6o

    Parent

    My son (none / 0) (#12)
    by flashman on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:22:01 PM EST
    toured WV last year.  He talked about the wide spread poverty.  Also said WV is the slowest growing state in the country, in population.

    Parent
    Slow growth not a bad thing. (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Fabian on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:03:51 PM EST
    What is more important is sustainable growth.  

    One of the big growth and economic limiting factors is the water table.  I learned in a Simply Living workshop that the reason that Appalachian Ohio has the lowest economic activity is lack of water.  The rest of the state is either part of a river valley or Great Lakes watershed.  Both of them have abundant water.  Compared to those water rich areas,  the hilly Appalachian region is water poor.  The water drains away instead of sinking in, plus the terrain isn't as good for agriculture as the more level regions.

    However, there are innovative businesses springing up.  Snowville Creamery is a dairy in Meigs County.  Instead of selling their dairy products to a wholesaler, they are micro targeting local retailers.

    I'm always looking to support local food production.  High energy prices will eventually create more localized and regional economies.  Might as well invest in the future now.

    It's strange seeing agriculture follow two widely divergent trends - either being turned into part of an immense multinational corporation, or shift to very local microfarms, CSAs which produce and distribute products only locally and/or regionally.  

    Parent

    It's gorgeous (none / 0) (#21)
    by CST on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:24:24 PM EST
    To drive through at least.  A little strange when you stop, almost like going back in time.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by squeaky on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:36:57 PM EST
    I remember driving through and is was a bit foggy. The hills popped up out of the clouds and it reminded me of Chinese landscapes I have see. Stunning and otherworldly.

    Parent
    Exactly what my daughter (none / 0) (#64)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:39:47 PM EST
    said about it.  

    Parent
    Worth A Visit (none / 0) (#94)
    by squeaky on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:47:18 PM EST
    And the Blue Ridge Parkway is also breathtaking. Magical. I was there over 25 years ago and the pictures, smells and sounds are still vivid in my mind.

    Parent
    Hey! We didn't say they could use (none / 0) (#60)
    by Joan in VA on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:38:02 PM EST
    the cardinal as state bird when we split!

    Parent
    Hillary Will Win! (none / 0) (#1)
    by Muzza on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:16:37 PM EST
    Well, I didn't add much there but a Hillary victory will give us all a big smile!!!

    http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net

    WV Board of Elections (none / 0) (#3)
    by Muzza on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:17:56 PM EST
    http://www.wvsos.com/elections/main.htm

    Haters at Huffington Post! (none / 0) (#8)
    by Muzza on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:20:47 PM EST
    Not surprisingly, the haters at Bluffington Post (oops) are slamming WV voters as "racists" - blah blah blah. See discussion below:

    http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net/discussion/showthread.php?t=11092

    tune up the banjos! (none / 0) (#96)
    by hellothere on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:47:56 PM EST


    Parent
    The Bigot Brigades! (none / 0) (#149)
    by Fabian on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:07:27 PM EST
    How wonderful that we share our country with such a diverse group of people!
    [snark!]

    Parent
    Keep an eye on Nebraska, too (none / 0) (#11)
    by phat on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:21:39 PM EST
    I have an odd feeling about this.

    Do tell...Enquiring minds want to know (none / 0) (#14)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:22:45 PM EST


    Parent
    An Odd Feeling How? (none / 0) (#19)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:23:48 PM EST


    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#65)
    by phat on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:40:08 PM EST
    the numbers will likely tighten up compared to the caucus results.

    Parent
    Please explain... (none / 0) (#75)
    by Exeter on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:43:34 PM EST
    I don't even know what is going on in Nebraska -- do they have a caucus-primary thing like Texas?

    Parent
    More like Washington (none / 0) (#188)
    by phat on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:30:07 PM EST
    We tried to get the state to take the presidential race off of the ballot after the caucus, but that didn't happen.

    Parent
    Story of a first-time WV voter! (none / 0) (#17)
    by Muzza on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:23:07 PM EST
    Of course he voted for Hillary:)

    http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net/discussion/showthread.php?t=11102

    If 70% of W. Virginians Share Hillary Values, Or (none / 0) (#24)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:25:24 PM EST
    she shares theirs, there must be some pretty cool people in WVA!  Go Hillary...Go WVA

    early exit polls (none / 0) (#27)
    by VicAjax on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:26:50 PM EST

    show this interesting tidbit:

    One in four Clinton voters said race was an important factor in their vote.
    About one in 10 Obama voters said race was an important factor in their vote.

    About one in five Clinton voters said gender was an important factor in their vote. Nearly as many Obama voters said that.

    let's talk about that first number... why would 25% of Hillary supporters in WV say race is important, versus only 10% for Obama supporters?

    Cause Obama supporters lie (5.00 / 3) (#29)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:27:41 PM EST


    Parent
    EXACTLY (5.00 / 4) (#37)
    by americanincanada on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:30:28 PM EST
    All through this primary season as Obama has gotten more and more AA voters, in lock step, we have heard how race was not a factor for them and how they do not vote in a monolithic block.

    The numbers seem to say otherwise.

    Parent

    interesting (2.00 / 0) (#52)
    by VicAjax on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:35:57 PM EST
    how vitriolic the response seems to be to these numbers:

    essentially, "these exit poll numbers are wrong because Obama supporters lie, but numbers that follow HRC's narrative are fascinating, because her supporters always tell the truth."

    sheesh.

    Parent

    We're tired of being told (none / 0) (#131)
    by madamab on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:01:27 PM EST
    how racist we are.

    Parent
    You set up a strawman (none / 0) (#164)
    by tree on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:13:50 PM EST
    and are "shocked, I say shocked" to be met with vitriol? Too funny.

    Parent
    In other words (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Steve M on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:33:29 PM EST
    25% of Clinton voters said race was an important factor, and 20% of Obama voters said gender was an important factor?  Okay.

    Parent
    Last number (5.00 / 0) (#50)
    by Carolyn in Baltimore on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:34:39 PM EST
    Let's talk about the last #. Why is gender so important to Obama voters? Could it be that sexism trumps race?

    Parent
    it's the same (none / 0) (#55)
    by VicAjax on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:37:01 PM EST

    gender was an equal factor between Clinton and Obama supporters.

    yet 25% of Clinton supporters cite race and only 10% of Obama supporters do.

    Parent

    Ok, explain why (none / 0) (#69)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:41:43 PM EST
    90% of AA voters vote for Obama then they say race is not important.  Does that make sense?   What about all the white  voters that vote for Obama because he is black?  How are they measuring that?  It's a dumb question.  And does not give any information.

    Parent
    WHY (none / 0) (#72)
    by VicAjax on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:43:18 PM EST
    should i take the time to engage you when you just declare that Obama supporters "lie?"

    doesn't matter what i say, you'll just call me a liar.

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 6) (#88)
    by Steve M on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:46:29 PM EST
    Calm down.  When two-thirds of black voters say that race is not a factor, yet they vote for Obama by a 10-1 margin, it's clear that at least some of them are kidding either the pollster or themselves.

    That's what is meant here.  It's not a general comment that Obama supporters are dishonest people, but an observation that people seem to be shy about admitting to pollsters that one of the reasons they support Obama is his race.

    Perhaps it's because Hillary has been quite up-front in promoting her gender as an asset, while Obama has been somewhat more low-key about the race issue.

    Parent

    AA vote in WV (none / 0) (#107)
    by VicAjax on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:51:00 PM EST

    make up a very small margin of the totals.  their support barely ticks up Obama's statewide numbers, so i guesstimate that their exit poll answers would have a similarly marginal effect.

    so the reasoning doesn't really follow.

    Parent

    Sure it does (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by Steve M on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:03:30 PM EST
    I used black voters in my example only because it's obvious that, with 90% of the black vote going to Obama, the role of race as a factor is being seriously understated to the exit pollsters.  But I'm certainly not claiming that only black voters misstate the role of race to exit pollsters and that white voters always tell the unvarnished truth about it.

    Anyway, you're raising this issue in an exceedingly passive-aggressive manner, by noting how "interesting" these numbers supposedly are, but refusing to say anything about what you believe makes them "interesting."  Small wonder people are concluding that you are insinuating that WV voters are racist.

    In my view, the far more relevant comparison is that similar percentages of people seem to be voting for Clinton for reasons of race as are voting for Obama for reasons of gender.  The "disparity" you point to seems entirely like an apples-oranges comparison to me, unless you're one of the rare people who believe that blacks voting for a black candidate because of race are just as racist as whites voting for a white candidate because of race.

    Setting that aside, if you want to focus on the one number that stands out from the rest - the relatively miniscule number of people voting for Obama because of race - I think I've offered a reasonable explanation.  Obama supporters are apparently reluctant to cite race as a factor in discussions with exit pollsters, because unlike Clinton supporters who cite gender, it doesn't fit with the narrative of the campaign.

    Parent

    The social desirability issue with polls (none / 0) (#86)
    by bjorn on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:45:56 PM EST
    is not really "lying" outright.  But do you really think his 90% lock on the AA community does not have a race identity element?

    Parent
    sure it does (none / 0) (#108)
    by VicAjax on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:51:45 PM EST

    but as i noted above... that's not relevent to his white supporters. which he does actually have.

    Parent
    the question (none / 0) (#59)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:38:02 PM EST
    "is it important" sex or race, to the voter? to the election?  Important in a positive or negative way.  What in the name of Zeus does this question mean and how are people answering the question.  

    Parent
    absolutely (none / 0) (#70)
    by VicAjax on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:41:47 PM EST

    there's no telling "how" it's important, just that it "is" important.  but it "is" important to 25% of HRC voters (whether or not you slander Obama voters as "LIARS.")

    Parent
    So, you can go and conclude (none / 0) (#82)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:44:37 PM EST
    Hillary voters are racist?  NO.  That is not what the question or any of the answers say.  

    Parent
    nope (none / 0) (#92)
    by VicAjax on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:47:01 PM EST
    i'm not declaring HRC supporters to be racist.  i'm simply pointing out that race is a factor for more than twice the proportion of HRC voters in West Virginia.  well, not if Obama supporters, as you declare, are liars.

    Parent
    Larger question is: (5.00 / 0) (#112)
    by madamab on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:53:20 PM EST
    who cares?

    If people are voting "against" Obama because of his race, what is Obama going to do about it?

    What is Obama's plan to win over voters who are going overwhelmingly for HRC?

    [cricket cricket cricket]

    Yeah, that's what I thought.

    A word to Senator Obama: Disdain, race-baiting and denigration will, guess what, not convince anyone who isn't already voting for you to switch sides.

    I have no constructive advice for him, personally, but at least I'm not going to Daily Kos and trying to stir up Obama supporters by implying that Obama voters are sexist.

    Parent

    yeah exactly (none / 0) (#200)
    by kayla on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:40:57 PM EST
    Every since Obama said, in SF, that working class whites are skeptical of a 46 year old black man or people who don't look like them, I've always wondered if his views of working class whites are that cynical then what is he doing running for president?  Does he have a plan to counter this?  Or is he going to skip over that demographic for one more favorable to him or what?

    Parent
    I don't think anyone is overtly lying (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Democratic Cat on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:56:21 PM EST
    but the question is so poorly worded and vague that it is meaningless.

    Whether race is a "factor" may mean something different to the person answering the poll than to the person reading the poll.

    Parent

    I Think So (none / 0) (#62)
    by squeaky on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:39:23 PM EST
    Especially if you are a AA woman.

    Parent
    The question you should be asking... (5.00 / 0) (#148)
    by Dawn Davenport on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:07:22 PM EST
    ...is why one in five Obama supporters consider gender a factor--and why that sort of sexism is any more acceptable than Hillary supporters voting on the basis of race.

    Parent
    and... (none / 0) (#183)
    by VicAjax on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:26:04 PM EST
    one in five HRC supporters say gender is a factor. same number.

    Parent
    People messing with the exit polls? (none / 0) (#36)
    by Teresa on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:30:16 PM EST
    If true, why would anyone admit it? And why would anyone from the Obama side say gender? I don't believe those numbers.

    Parent
    another WV exit poll number: (none / 0) (#66)
    by VicAjax on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:40:15 PM EST
    7 in 10 HRC supporters back her gas tax holiday.
    4 in 10 Obama supporters back it.

    Parent
    lol!~ I have somebody giving me (5.00 / 0) (#74)
    by nycstray on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:43:28 PM EST
    serious grief about this on another forum. If I were feeling bratty, I'd go over and post this, but I'll be a good girl . . . . for now  {grin}

    Parent
    I fully support (none / 0) (#122)
    by Benjamin3 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:57:50 PM EST
    all exit poll numbers that favor Hillary.  Any others are to be discounted!

    Parent
    If 51% (5.00 / 0) (#130)
    by Benjamin3 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:01:11 PM EST
    of Democrats in WV say that Obama shares Wright's values, that's pretty bad news for the GE.  I suppose WV Democrats must be purged from the Party.

    Parent
    Aren't they already (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by samanthasmom on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:05:51 PM EST
    under the bus with the rest of us?  My uncle and I are holding on to the same exhaust pipe. It's great seeing him.

    Parent
    LOL (none / 0) (#161)
    by kmblue on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:12:58 PM EST
    Darn that's good.  I was trying to think of a joke involving the spare tire earlier today, but you beat me to it.  Damn you!  (shakes fist!)

    Parent
    Out with the Bubbas! (none / 0) (#133)
    by madamab on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:02:16 PM EST
    Chris Bowers and his ilk are certainly trying.

    Parent
    And why ignore the second number nt (none / 0) (#76)
    by seeker on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:43:35 PM EST


    Parent
    not ignoring (none / 0) (#85)
    by VicAjax on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:45:24 PM EST

    it's discussed above.  it's less interesting because the number is the same for both sides.  however, with race, there's a large disparity, for whatever reason.

    Parent
    This race thing is really getting on my nerves. (5.00 / 0) (#189)
    by Anne on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:31:14 PM EST
    If you're a white voter who supports Clinton, maybe race is important to you not because Obama is black, but because every time you turn around, there's a negative association being made between being white and voting for Clinton.

    Maybe it's important because you don't want to elect someone who chooses to use race as a wedge.

    Or maybe it's important because you think the person who gets elected should be someone who doesn't use race to guilt people into voting for him.

    Or maybe, it's important because you realize that the candidate who preaches unity doesn't act accordingly.

    You wouldn't even need to be a white voter to say that race matters - maybe you're not white but you think the tactics Obama is using are putting race relations in reverse and you think that's bad for the country.  

    See, there are a lot of reasons why it may matter to those who support Hillary.

    In my mind, Obama is reaping what he has sown.

    Parent

    Comment on the Spin Doctor exchange earlier (none / 0) (#39)
    by rilkefan on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:30:49 PM EST
    Commenter A said x showed y then Spin Doctor (whom I'm not familiar with) pointed out (prima facie correctly) that x was data for not y.  This angered BTD because it's been pretty well established here that y.  This is a common occurrence on the web - incompatible scopes.  I thought the resulting exchange reflected poorly on both, who should have acknowledged the other's point without making global value judgements based on what looks to me like a talking-past.

    IT was red herringism about sexism (none / 0) (#45)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:32:59 PM EST
    that I abhor. I expected much better of Spin Doctor. This was not about Obama and no one said it was.

    It was pooh poohing of the sexism concern by Spin Doctor who should know better. He let the campaign fever get to him.

    Parent

    We disagree (none / 0) (#98)
    by SpinDoctor on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:48:53 PM EST
    But I do agree with Rilkefan's admonition that it reflected poorly on both of us and, for that reason, will not continue the exchange here.  Whatever transpired in that thread, I hold no ill will and still respect your passionate advocacy...even if you are sometimes wrong!  :)

    Parent
    Good show here n/t (none / 0) (#121)
    by rilkefan on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:57:03 PM EST


    Parent
    I'll let it go (none / 0) (#128)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:00:14 PM EST
    But I do wish you will revisit what that post was about.

    Parent
    Thanks Armando (none / 0) (#150)
    by SpinDoctor on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:07:36 PM EST
    I have gone back and can see where the disagreement came from.  I am not sure how the reply threading on your computer comes out, but I was not replying to your post as I agreed with the sentiment and thought it apparent that Penn's "joke" was offensive and condemnable. I typically will not participate in a discussion merely to echo the sentiments of the author of the post.  I was only posting a reply to another commenter who was arguing a potential double standard.  I can see how we ended up talking past one another as we were each focused on something else.

    Parent
    Threading here is partial and recently spotty n/t (none / 0) (#159)
    by rilkefan on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:12:49 PM EST


    Parent
    (partially/spottily indented, that is - (none / 0) (#165)
    by rilkefan on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:14:17 PM EST
    parent always works for me on linux/firefox)

    Parent
    Hillary Still Needs People to Call WV!!! (none / 0) (#83)
    by Muzza on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:44:40 PM EST
    Still 1.5 hours to call voters!

    Please help Hillary to victory!!

    http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net/discussion/showthread.php?t=10745

    Did you see where Senate (none / 0) (#114)
    by Lahdee on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:53:54 PM EST
    Democrats want to pressure Saudi to increase oil production by withholding four proposed U.S. arms sales?
    63% liked the gas tax holiday.

    The really meaningless one IMO, but loaded with symbolism, is suspension of 70K (?) or so gallons a day to strategic reserves.

    Quick somebody do something it's an election year!!

    bush2 won't like that. (none / 0) (#125)
    by hellothere on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:59:28 PM EST


    Parent
    ok, i am open to suggestions. (none / 0) (#123)
    by hellothere on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:58:52 PM EST
    where will i find the best coverage tonight? msnbc doesn't exist for me.(full disclosure)

    Try CSPAN (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Benjamin3 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:07:09 PM EST
    for some fairly straight forward coverage.

    Parent
    I was thinking I might watch MSNBC (none / 0) (#146)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:07:18 PM EST
    just to see how hard the spin a 30 point loss.
    beyond that I say FOX.
    at least they know they are fools.

    Parent
    I'll deal with Fox until 9:00 pm... (none / 0) (#167)
    by Benjamin3 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:14:56 PM EST
    Then I have to switch, since Hannity is going to have Dick Morris on.

    Parent
    I love Dick Morris (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:18:37 PM EST
    I think every time he is on teevee Hillary get 500 votes.
    if you had to pick someone from central casting to be your enemy who could you pick for a better one.
    the face, the voice, the general demeanor.
    he is a gift.

    Parent
    He's never (none / 0) (#186)
    by Benjamin3 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:29:12 PM EST
    made a prediction about Hillary that has come true. Do you remember when he predicted Hillary would "drop out" of her senate re-election bid because she was afraid of Jeanine Pirro?  lol

    Parent
    what I love (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:37:38 PM EST
    is that he is always introduced as a "former Clinton advisor".
    does anyone remember how long ago that was?
    so, in other words, nothing he has done in his miserable life is worth mentioning in an introduction.


    Parent
    Right now they are showing him live (none / 0) (#178)
    by Joan in VA on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:23:47 PM EST
    making a speech. Which makes perfect sense for them.

    Parent
    my thoughts on WV (none / 0) (#141)
    by DandyTIger on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:05:44 PM EST
    beautiful state as many have noted. Poverty issues as well. Some horrible blight on the land where there is strip mining in the south. Incredible people. As the Obama fan base and the MSM tries to relate the white vote to being racist it's good to keep in mind the state was formed by splitting from VA during the civil war (only state formed then) to side with the north and against slavery.

    From friends and family I've heard that the Obaam organization has been really good. With incredible representation canvasing and going door to door, and being very good and professional and communicating their cases very well. Clinton has had nothing like that on the ground. I hear it's really clear that Obama has heavily outspent Clinton in the state. For that reason people I talk too think the numbers should be tighter than some are saying. Maybe more like 20 or 21 points margin. Me personally, I think more like 25, but they may be right.

    Ah, the blue ridge. I'm looking out my office window at the blue ridge right now as I type (outside of C'ville, VA). The mountains on both sides, in both states, are incredible. Just wait until fall if you want to see something.

    And speaking of Cardinals, that's my college team as well, in CA. What, does everyone use the cardinals?

    Whoa! Only 36% of Clinton supporters would (none / 0) (#195)
    by kempis on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:35:18 PM EST
    vote for Obama in November.

    36%
    Wow....

    That number (none / 0) (#196)
    by cmugirl on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:37:32 PM EST
    drops every time we have a primary.  Doesn't that tell somebody something??

    Parent
    While waiting for election results, (none / 0) (#208)
    by oculus on Tue May 13, 2008 at 06:55:51 PM EST
    here are some interesting portions of today's NYT:

    LETTERS

    BOB HERBERT
    Title is "Here Come the Millenials."  Herbert seems to think they need Obama, but I'd say they need Clinton, as they want better, more secure jobs and health care.

    GEORGE MCGOVERN
    Kind of goofy, but he is willing to permit Clinton to stay in the race.  How gracious.

    More West Virginia And Other Matters | 205 comments (205 topical)